We need 4 political parties

Conservative, Liberal, and the traditional republican and democratic parties.... then the more moderate folks would have their say in the government when the radicals from both parties are on their own.

We need Teamsters to run this country!!!

Hey Shocker, WTF is up with this weather?? TVG now is carrying races from Indiana Downs, the boys are loading the horses in winter coats!!and I go from shorts and flipflops yesterday to sweatshirt and jeans today..

cravnravn wrote:We need Teamsters to run this country!!!

Oh, yeah, THAT's what we need... don't get me started on the whole union thing...

cravnravn wrote:Hey Shocker, WTF is up with this weather?? TVG now is carrying races from Indiana Downs, the boys are loading the horses in winter coats!!and I go from shorts and flipflops yesterday to sweatshirt and jeans today..

Its fucking bullshit, that's what it is!!!

Normal high here should be 75 these days... we'll hit 62 tops this week. This morning there were reports of FROST in the Central IN area...

The rain will come... but I want the warmth to come with it.

Of course the Teamsters were attacked by the former booze running family........from NE........named JFK and RFK

And who won that battle

Oh, yeah, THAT's what we need... don't get me started on the whole union thing...

You will lose that battle.

cravnravn wrote:Oh, yeah, THAT's what we need... don't get me started on the whole union thing...

You will lose that battle.

yep..

The only problem with the teamsters is........ They're fucking backing Obama!!!

I belong to Local 414!

Not trying to rufflle feathers here guys, but I've been on both sides...
although not a teamster.

There was a need for the unions at one time. In some cases there may still be...

ColtsKurt wrote:Not trying to rufflle feathers here guys, but I've been on both sides...
although not a teamster.

There was a need for the unions at one time. In some cases there may still be...

actually CK... folks aren't buying that line much anymore these days and more industries are unionizing again after they found out that it was a corporate lie that they weren't needed anymore.

You ought to see the looks on the hispanics faces when I tell them how much money they wold be making if they worked union.... they can't sign cards fast enough.

and it's not just the unionized industries that are paying the price, have you called customer service on your cell phone lately? Or called a customer service rep for anything? I remember back when I was in school and they sold everybody on computers being the industry of the future... they didn't tell those folks that there jobs would be outsourced to pakistan and India after they padi 75k for a college education.. hell man most likely when you have x-rays done these days they are e-mailed to a radiologist in India and the results are e-mailed back to your Dr.

Unions are making a comeback in a big way after the corporate lies are being exposed for what they are....... I mean after-all the whole point of working is to maximize and make the most money that you can... Unions are as american as apple pie, and this country wouldn't be half of what it is today without the good union men and women that work hard everyday.

I belong to Local 414!


Local 355 for moi

dblshockpwr wrote:
You ought to see the looks on the hispanics faces when I tell them how much money they wold be making if they worked union.... they can't sign cards fast enough.

You just made a big part of my arguement, 2shock... example...
I had a buddy that worked for the Indpls Star in their transportation dept. He delivered bundles of papers for the paperboys to deliver.Drove around in a pick up truck... 4 bundles here, 5 bundles there. His route took about 3 hours. The rest of the 7 hr shift was spent in a parking lot... zzzzzz

For that important bit of highly skilled labor... $45K per year. 10 years ago! With full healthcare benefits including eyecare and dental. Add in the OT and he pushed $65K. Ten years ago.

You cannot tell me that was an honest wage for a day's work. THAT's why our local fishwrap is now owned by a huge conglomerate that puts out a paper similar to a high quality High School newspaper. Hell, the Indy Star looks like what was the old Topics paper (for you locals).

The unions ensure that the workers are properly trained. It ensures that the workers are not taken advantage of. BUT, over time... it also ensures that the members will price themselves right out of a job. Ever seen a union negotiate a lower contract in poor times? Ever seen a business go out of business due to "labor problems?" (ie: too high wages)

If you're a worker... its great! Make the big bucks with never ending and always escalating bennies... If you're the boss/owner... look out! You will soon be priced right out of competitive bid situations. Just try to fire a problem worker in a union shop...

There is a medium in there somewhere. The problem is finding it. As I said, you ever see a union backtrack? (Well maybe the airline industry... they've - pilots and cabin stewards - taken several cuts just to keep their jobs...)

I'm pretty sure I'm out numbered here, and those I can say I feel closest to (is that possible, never having met or spoken with?) are firmly (and probably rightfully so because its best for their families) on the other side of the fence... but I've lived both sides. In my opinion the negatives outweighed the positives more often than not... and has driven many businesses out of the country to find lower labor costs or to avoid unionization to be able to compete in a global economy.

There are far smarter minds than mine that have tried to figure this problem out. I'm just offering another point of view.


PEACE!

Religon and politics... add labor to the list.

ColtsKurt wrote:

dblshockpwr wrote:
You ought to see the looks on the hispanics faces when I tell them how much money they wold be making if they worked union.... they can't sign cards fast enough.

You just made a big part of my arguement, 2shock... example...
I had a buddy that worked for the Indpls Star in their transportation dept. He delivered bundles of papers for the paperboys to deliver.Drove around in a pick up truck... 4 bundles here, 5 bundles there. His route took about 3 hours. The rest of the 7 hr shift was spent in a parking lot... zzzzzz

For that important bit of highly skilled labor... $45K per year. 10 years ago! With full healthcare benefits including eyecare and dental. Add in the OT and he pushed $65K. Ten years ago.

You cannot tell me that was an honest wage for a day's work. THAT's why our local fishwrap is now owned by a huge conglomerate that puts out a paper similar to a high quality High School newspaper. Hell, the Indy Star looks like what was the old Topics paper (for you locals).

The unions ensure that the workers are properly trained. It ensures that the workers are not taken advantage of. BUT, over time... it also ensures that the members will price themselves right out of a job. Ever seen a union negotiate a lower contract in poor times? Ever seen a business go out of business due to "labor problems?" (ie: too high wages)

If you're a worker... its great! Make the big bucks with never ending and always escalating bennies... If you're the boss/owner... look out! You will soon be priced right out of competitive bid situations. Just try to fire a problem worker in a union shop...

There is a medium in there somewhere. The problem is finding it. As I said, you ever see a union backtrack? (Well maybe the airline industry... they've - pilots and cabin stewards - taken several cuts just to keep their jobs...)

I'm pretty sure I'm out numbered here, and those I can say I feel closest to (is that possible, never having met or spoken with?) are firmly (and probably rightfully so because its best for their families) on the other side of the fence... but I've lived both sides. In my opinion the negatives outweighed the positives more often than not... and has driven many businesses out of the country to find lower labor costs or to avoid unionization to be able to compete in a global economy.

There are far smarter minds than mine that have tried to figure this problem out. I'm just offering another point of view.


PEACE!

CK, you fail to mention that the airlines priced themselves out of making money..... the unions had nothing to do with that...

And can you justify the CEO's of GM and Ford (and other management positions) gettting multi-million doallar bonuses for failing to make money? Why should they be rewarded for failing to make companies competitive? WHy do they blame the unions when less than a quarter of their workforce is unionized? Look at United and how they scewedd THOUSANDS of people out of their lifetime of work for retirement... how about medical benefits being cut all over the country? (I blame the greedy insurance companies for that )

I mean people blame unions for this and that and it's . the truth is most of the time it is companies gross mis-management and failure to change their upper management structures. that are having the biggest effects.

How about your local car-salesman? wtf does he do to justify him walking away with 30% of the gross on that car that you buy? (and a good salesman gets more) that Caddy that you bought has about a 13,000 gross...... so I go fills out some paperwork and goes for a ride with you and it's worth $4000? I'm very, very tired of seeing the working man get chastised for standing up for himself.

AND if you think that the only jobs getting outsourced are Unions jobs then you've bought into the corporate Kool-Aid... they are trying to send EVERYBODIES job overseas......or replace them with cheap foreign labor.....Union or not... whther somebody makes 20an hour or 10 an hour it doesn't matter when some 10 year old kid in china or mexico will do it for $1 a day.....

AND this country's greatest strenght has NEVER been the militery... it's been it's ECONOMIC strength.... and that economic strength came straight from our ability to manufacture...the reason why we won WWII for the largest part was because of the ability for our nation to outproduce anyone else in terms of tanks, airplanes, ships vehicles and everything else... we don't produce ANYTHING anymore.... and it's hurting our national defense... it's why we are having to borrow trillions from communist china..... Hell Bush was supplying the troops with cut rate fucking ammunition that was made in China and cost some of our troops their lives when it failed.

These republicans and their anti-working person ways are the ones weakening this nation and sending us all straight to hell in a handbasket... thats why I am definately voting democrat in the upcoming election... because America being a strong nation again starts and ends with our econominc strength... and that doesn't come from just printing more money and selling the American people out to the highest bidder like has been going on for the last 8 years.... Bush and his cronies have singlehadnidly hurt the USA to the point we as a nation are close to being on our knees economically to foreign powers.....

and John McSame is looking to do the exact same thing... just look at McSame's personal wealth since he got into the political realm... he was making 20K a year as a LOBBYIST working for the Hensley Corp... then he starts cheating on his paralyzed wife hith Cindy McCain... abandoned his paralyzed wife and their SEVEN childern marries Cindy McCain and boom very soon after he is running for Congress... and in 20 years in DC taking lobbyists money he amassed a 40 million dollar personal fortune.... Now if John McSame is willing to sell-out the woman that waited for 5 years for him to be released from a POW camp and his very own childern WTF do you guys thinks that scumbag SOB is going to do us when he gets the chance?

I will die before I vote for the scumbag SOB. He hates America and American workers.... it's why he AUTHORED the bill to give amnesty to illegal workers in the USA and make it easier for them to cross into America... because he was bought off by corporate america to do it.... it's why he got into bed with a multi-millionaire and took a huge pay-off from him to attack the 2nd amendement back in the early 2000's....

Obama is the only candidate of the 3 that isn't bought and paid for by special interests, and is the only one that truly loves american and wants to see her be great again... he's the only one that is going to fight for American jobs staying here.... he;s the only one that isn;t a sell-out.

I could care less about his looney-tunes preacher... hell all preachers are looney-tunes........

And I will be cating my vote for the politicaina that loves America... and thats not the republicans or John McSame.

ColtsKurt wrote:

dblshockpwr wrote:
You ought to see the looks on the hispanics faces when I tell them how much money they wold be making if they worked union.... they can't sign cards fast enough.

You just made a big part of my arguement, 2shock... example...
I had a buddy that worked for the Indpls Star in their transportation dept. He delivered bundles of papers for the paperboys to deliver.Drove around in a pick up truck... 4 bundles here, 5 bundles there. His route took about 3 hours. The rest of the 7 hr shift was spent in a parking lot... zzzzzz

For that important bit of highly skilled labor... $45K per year. 10 years ago! With full healthcare benefits including eyecare and dental. Add in the OT and he pushed $65K. Ten years ago.

You cannot tell me that was an honest wage for a day's work. THAT's why our local fishwrap is now owned by a huge conglomerate that puts out a paper similar to a high quality High School newspaper. Hell, the Indy Star looks like what was the old Topics paper (for you locals).

The unions ensure that the workers are properly trained. It ensures that the workers are not taken advantage of. BUT, over time... it also ensures that the members will price themselves right out of a job. Ever seen a union negotiate a lower contract in poor times? Ever seen a business go out of business due to "labor problems?" (ie: too high wages)

If you're a worker... its great! Make the big bucks with never ending and always escalating bennies... If you're the boss/owner... look out! You will soon be priced right out of competitive bid situations. Just try to fire a problem worker in a union shop...

There is a medium in there somewhere. The problem is finding it. As I said, you ever see a union backtrack? (Well maybe the airline industry... they've - pilots and cabin stewards - taken several cuts just to keep their jobs...)

I'm pretty sure I'm out numbered here, and those I can say I feel closest to (is that possible, never having met or spoken with?) are firmly (and probably rightfully so because its best for their families) on the other side of the fence... but I've lived both sides. In my opinion the negatives outweighed the positives more often than not... and has driven many businesses out of the country to find lower labor costs or to avoid unionization to be able to compete in a global economy.

There are far smarter minds than mine that have tried to figure this problem out. I'm just offering another point of view.


PEACE!

Spoken like a true "suit"

All points well taken and spoken.

My comments were not directed at a specific candidate or party. I agree that the problems facing the country today are not the fault of the unions. My point is that in some cases, the unions have added to the problem.

I agree that manufacturing is the backbone. I agree that skilled tradesmen are the backbone of manufacturing. I also agree that the cost of labor has caused the manufacturing base to move across the borders and the sea. Government regulations and "tree huggers" have added to the woes as much as labor costs.

I don't have the answers... I do have thoughts on small slivers of the issues.

I agree that Obama appears to be the right guy at this time...

But I still think $45K 10 years ago to drive a pick up truck and drop bundles of papers is a travesty and symbolistic of the uphill battle unions have to fight... hell, $45K to do that TODAY would be a travesty.

I haven't worn a suit to work for years. Suits are for weddings and funerals.

Cargo shorts and flip flops work for me. If a guy won't buy something because I don't have a tie on... well, he's certainly not the customer I'm looking for...

Peace.

Just my 2 cents worth...

My two cents, for what it's worth:

As a former union member (I walked the picket line back in 1976 before I got smart and found another job...the union was on strike for 4 months and got a 4% raise...go figure) and as a long term member of "management", I've seen both sides. Kurt and Dbl have presented the pluses and minuses very well.

But, to think that this country can compete in a global economy (and we have no choice in that matter) bearing the burden of high wages and benefits for union workers is foolish. Do you think India or China will ever allow workers to unionize for better conditions? Highly unlikely, so the bottom line is we're competing on an unlevel playing field. Ask those former International Garment Workers Union members, or the auto worker union members, or any of several other union members who lost their jobs because they're companies could not compete in the global market. Think they might have some second thoughts today about the impact their previous union demands had on their demise?

Of course, we'll always have the various public employee and government employee unions and our taxes will continue to rise to support the clerks and teachers they represent. Their demands have gotten out of hand...ANYONE here want talk about how efficient government bureaucracy works or about the quality of public education? The union gives you those results, folks.

Unions had a place one time. They've now gotten out of hand. Die-hard union members want things to go back to they way they were in the old days and, if we can't, it's because of company management or George Bush. No realization of the changing world and how important it will be for this country to adapt to the global market demands or sink. The days when the good old U.S. of A is the driver are dwindling.

Suggest you read "The World is Flat" for some good insight on things.

Rant and rave all you want, it won't change reality.

Oh, and Obama's getting my vote (go figure).

Unions are like a weird marxist cult. I just talked to a former union guy....and that's exactly what he told me, "Unions are like cults".

I of course told him I agree completely. I want to be independant, like an American should be.

Europe is finally beginning to break the power of unions that has kept their economy in stagnation for decades, especially in Germany. Now business owners can FIRE all that dead weight who don't produce....."git your sorry ass outta here, punk!!!"

Oh, by the way......take a look at the American auto makers. They are all losing money bigtime. They all use unions with all that nasty union overhead. But Toyota is turning consistent quarterly profits.....and they don't use union labor. And they also make the most reliable well-built cars and trucks on this planet. Those Japs are smart. We, on the other hand, build union cars and trucks that are designed to take a dump after 3 or 4 years, forcing the consumer to buy another vehicle or pay exorborant labor costs to the union for repairs. But the consumer says, "Up Yours!! I'm buying Japanese!!"

Die-hard union members want things to go back to they way they were in the old days and, if we can't, it's because of company management or George Bush.

Oh look, a zinger

No, I do not want to go back to the "old days"..Just a fair days work for a fair days pay..Now, what is fair you ask? In this day and age 30-42 an hour is a fair wage, my Boys at UPS are right on the cusp of that 30 an hour wage.

Unions are like a weird marxist cult. I just talked to a former union guy....and that's exactly what he told me, "Unions are like cults".


Please!! Do I sound like a guy in a cult??

cravnravn wrote:Die-hard union members want things to go back to they way they were in the old days and, if we can't, it's because of company management or George Bush.

Oh look, a zinger

No, I do not want to go back to the "old days"..Just a fair days work for a fair days pay..Now, what is fair you ask? In this day and age 30-42 an hour is a fair wage, my Boys at UPS are right on the cusp of that 30 an hour wage.

Unions are like a weird marxist cult. I just talked to a former union guy....and that's exactly what he told me, "Unions are like cults".


Please!! Do I sound like a guy in a cult??

You're right, Caran. We all know you don't like the "cults", especially the Indy Cults.

cravnravn wrote:Please!! Do I sound like a guy in a cult??

YES! You belong to the "pee on the grave of a highly respected NFL owner and Super Bowl host's Dad's grave" cult.
And instead of kool-aid, you drink beer. If you drink bourbon... you'll be fine. Trust me!